The incredible Ryan Wallman joined me to talk about the inspiration for his new book, Delusions of Brandeur and the decisions he made to create a very different kind of marketing book. We also discuss evidence based marketing and his medical training.

Links:
Delusions of Brandeur: Buy this book. https://www.delusionsofbrandeur.com/
Gasp!: https://www.gasp4.com/
Follow Ryan on Twitter and LinkedIn.

Transcript by otter.ai

Adam Pierno 0:25
Welcome back to another episode of the strategy inside everything. This conversation is taking us all the way around the world. I’m here in sunny Phoenix, Arizona and our guest is our guest is calling in here today from Perth in Australia. I am I can’t wait to get started on this topic. I’ve been digging into his new book. And there’s a lot to cover, because every page is like a work of art in my opinion. Ryan Wallman thank you for joining us.

Ryan Wallman 0:57
You’re very welcome. Thank you for having me on.

Adam Pierno 0:59
I’m delighted that we were able to connect and make this happen. For those of you don’t know, Ryan is creative director and head of copy at Wellmark, you probably have seen something by Ryan. And whether whether it’s a product of his work or his tweets as Dr. Draper on Twitter, which is how I got acquainted with him, or his work and eat your greens, or his new book Delusions of Brandeur, which is blowing my mind as we speak.

Ryan Wallman 1:30
Yeah, well, thank you very much. Yeah, as you said, we got connected on Twitter. And that’s kind of how I know a lot of people in the industry to be honest. And yeah, I’m very pleased to be on because I’ve heard some of your other guests and you’ve had some amazing guests on there. So

Adam Pierno 1:48
yeah, thanks. Thanks a lot. Yeah, I’m really glad to be speaking with you. Why don’t you before we get going and start talking about the book, if you wouldn’t mind giving people a sense of your career and just tell them kind of where You’ve been in what you’ve done. And then I think that’ll probably lead pretty naturally into your writing.

Ryan Wallman 2:05
Sure, yeah. Well, I mean, it’s been an interesting career. It started off in a very different way from from where it’s landed, really. I trained as a doctor. So trying to medicine and then worked as a kind of a junior slash junior doctor for about five years. I worked in psychiatry for years and then and then decided that I didn’t want to work in medicine anymore. And kind of concurrently with that had had always had a love for writing. And so I wanted to do some kind of broadening. And essentially, I sort of started looking into whether they will bridge that that gap between what I wanted to do and what I was doing. And so I ended up doing a course in professional writing, started looking into sort of opportunities and eventually ended up joining well, microphone current agency, as a medical writer initially and then gradually evolved really into more of a creative copywriter, I guess and then, and then more recently creative direction, and so on. And that’s where I am. So I’ve been at my current agency 12 years, which is what I’m currently on the long service leave as we speak.

Adam Pierno 3:14
12 years is a lifetime.

Ryan Wallman 3:16
It is it is, particularly in the creative industry here.

Adam Pierno 3:19
What was that shift like Ryan moving from psychiatry and all the study that you do there to creative direction and then it’s quite a gradient that you that you crossed to get from one end of the spectrum to any other how, you know, what was the process like of switching from essentially one side of your brain to the other?

Ryan Wallman 3:41
Yeah, yeah. Well, that’s, that’s really what it was. Well, I think I think it’s an it was an interesting process because it wasn’t, you know, a clean break because as I say, I started off really is more of a technical medical writer. So I guess that shift from from one side to the It was, was fairly gradual. But it was like it was great, because I think I’ve always been quite creative and had been looking for an outlet for that. So, you know, I’ve kind of ended up where I wanted to be all along. I think that’s fantastic.

Adam Pierno 4:15
Yeah.

Ryan Wallman 4:16
But having said that, I still, you know, I’m still in healthcare. And I still work on, you know, on pharmaceutical brands and so on that can be fairly complex and still have a, you know, there’s strong scientific basis to what we do. So I haven’t kind of abandon that altogether. But yeah, it’s a it’s quite a nice mix. I think now,

Adam Pierno 4:35
what is it? What does it take for someone who’s a traditional ad writer that comes into Walmart or that enters this category? To get up to speed on the medical side of it? I mean, is that is that complex for them?

Ryan Wallman 4:49
Yeah, look at the it doesn’t really happen, to be honest. You know, we are really it’s a pretty niche area that we’re in That probably is a little bit different there. You know, there are agencies around big agencies that have healthcare, and so on where where that wouldn’t be impossible me and people could certainly shift but certainly in our agency, people tend to come up through the scientific side and they, you know, they kind of have to have a scientific background to be to be able to write in this area. I mean, I’m sure a look at it’s not impossible, but certainly, in our experience, that’s kind of how it has to work because otherwise it just it’s too, too great a chasm to to be able to cross.

Adam Pierno 5:34
I think it is interesting as I look at delusions of brander, which which I have a copy of in front of me here. How much you talk about expertise. And then on the other side is a lot of what copywriting a lot of book advertising creatives are assigned is demonstration of a mastery of subject matter. And, you know, make it compelling. Yeah, which is Which is a really difficult challenge anyway. But in you know, those real tight verticals like medical devices or or pharma, it becomes even a tighter box.

Ryan Wallman 6:12
Yeah, that’s right. And I think that probably touches on a lot of the other things are guessing in Delusions of Brandeur is that you know, there is this tendency in the industry for people to kind of wing it especially, you know, what I mean, without really having any evidence for what they’re doing and not understanding the fundamentals. And, and I guess, that’s part of the reason why I wrote about this kind of thing is because I have come from a very scientific background and, you know, where, you know, completely ignoring the evidence just isn’t isn’t possible and and, you know, you you wouldn’t be working. So, so I think that’s probably been part of the basis for him.

Adam Pierno 6:56
If you stray from the evidence as a doctor, they take away your your life Exactly, exactly.

Ryan Wallman 7:04
Yeah. And well, and then obviously the other consequences that, you know, you can end up killing people. And that was really, I guess the mentality. Yeah. So that was the mentality that I had come into the industry with and kind of some of the charlatanism and stuff that I saw blew me away, to be honest. So so that’s probably the main part of the motivation for

Adam Pierno 7:25
Was Eat Your Greens your first book that you participated in writing, or have you written more than that?

Unknown Speaker 7:33
No, that was the first one. Yeah. And interestingly, you know, that was really, as you as you probably know, was kind of the unifying theme for Eat Your Greens, which was, you know, the evidence based marketing and fact based thinking I think was the thing was subtitle. So obviously, that really kind of jumped out at me as as something that was interesting and interested in contributing to.

Adam Pierno 7:58
Yeah, and then it starts The I could see how what you wrote there connects to what you wrote in delusions of grandeur, because it’s, it’s about putting your money where your mouth is, and using the evidence and all this works been done. Why are we Why are we running from the facts? Why don’t we use them as a foundation? Exactly, Yep.

Ryan Wallman 8:16
Yep. And and you’re right, I think it having contributed to that. got me thinking about writing sort of, you know, something myself and, and in fact, there are a couple of places in there that are common across the two. So it certainly served as a bit of a platform for for what I was going to put together. Yeah.

Adam Pierno 8:34
And what was the process like of that? Because I know there are a lot of participants in eat your greens. What was the process of you know, how did that one come about? And then how did you guys engage as everybody was contributing?

Ryan Wallman 8:47
We didn’t really engage from a few sort of group emails and stuff like that. No, but it’s a very much Wiemer Nnijders, I mean, he was the guy that put it together and was, you know, he’s really the author contacted a whole lot of us that sort of knew each other from Twitter and LinkedIn and not everyone know each other to be honest, and, you know, asked us whether we would be interested in contributing. And I think pretty much everyone said yes. And as you know that some of the names in there, great, incredible Mark, Ritson, Byron Sharp, Bob Hoffman. I can’t think of any others off the top of my head. But anyway, there’s 35 of us there. And, and really, he gave us that brief that it was about, you know, the fundamentals, looking at the evidence and not kind of getting carried away with some of the more outrageous claims in our industry. And that was really it. And we could sort of do that what we what we would and so it meant that it’s quite a it’s quite a diverse book. There are lots of different styles and sort of things in there. But that’s the kind of the undercurrent, I guess. And that’s what sort of threads it all together.

Adam Pierno 10:08
Yeah. by that same idea for sure. Yeah.

Ryan Wallman 10:11
Yeah. And I think he very much sort of had a bit of, you know, he had to do a bit of editing, given, given that, but overall, I think we were all kind of, you know, to roughly have the same mon so i think i think it is, it’s a great book. If you haven’t read it.

Adam Pierno 10:31
It’s fantastic.

Unknown Speaker 10:32
Yeah. So So yeah, that was kind of it was it was an interesting process. But I think just the fact that everyone was so enthusiastic about doing it pointed to the fact that there was a need for something like that.

Adam Pierno 10:43
When I found it. I realized, oh, I’ve been waiting for this. I didn’t know I had been waiting for it until it

Unknown Speaker 10:51
Yeah, well, I actually felt the same way when when he approached me so. So yeah, I think I think we’re all

Adam Pierno 10:58
have similar Monday. It’s a It’s a funny world, especially the Twitter echo chamber, because it’s very easy to get. We’re all somewhat guilty of building our bubble of people that we agree with. And if I post something on Twitter that says, If I make fun of Gary Vee, or if you and I post something about, you know, research and evidence will get a lot of head nodding. Yes. So it is sometimes hard to remember. There are a lot of people out in the world that disagree or ignore the evidence or don’t care about the evidence or move forward make pretty big decisions about their their marketing without paying any heed to the evidence or the work that’s been done in this in this field.

Ryan Wallman 11:43
Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. You know, I’m reminded of that often in meetings and so on, you know, away from the online bubble. People are denied experience experienced marketers who have never had a barn shop. You know, People have genuinely taken on board the, you know, recommendations of guys like Gary Vee and all that. And yeah, it’s mind boggling sometimes. But but it’s, it’s really happening here.

Adam Pierno 12:08
Let’s talk about delusions of grandeur. Because I’ve got a copy. Like I said in front of me, I want to I want to start at the very beginning. When did you when you got the idea for the book? What What did that idea? What was that idea shaped? Like? Describe and describe the idea because it’s not a typical book.

Ryan Wallman 12:29
It is not

Adam Pierno 12:32
on the best possible way. Yeah. Right. Thank you.

Ryan Wallman 12:35
You’re right. And in fact sign that you know, it is a marketing book of sorts, but it’s certainly not a marketing book in the conventional sense. And, and as you said, not even really a book in the conventional sense. By which I mean that it’s a collection of articles and blog posts and kind of satirical pieces that loosely grouped together. But certainly not it can be you know, it’s not a contiguous space. From start to finish, as you’ve saying, and essentially, I mean, I had been thinking about putting together a book for a while. And frankly, I was either too busy or too lazy to write something from from scratch. But I had all this material that I’ve accumulated over the past few years, because, you know, as you know, from from Twitter, you know, I brought quite a lot of short pieces, and, you know, and articles and so on. And I figured that there was probably enough in there to constitute a book, which, which there wasn’t, you know, I look back through everything, and there’s quite a lot of stuff. And so probably about a year ago, I kind of missed on Twitter that I was thinking about doing a book, you know, without really having thought about how I was going to go about it.

Adam Pierno 13:45
That’s such a dangerous move. You get a “sucker go ahead and write a book, do it,” and then you end up stuck with the work.

Ryan Wallman 13:54
Yeah, that was pretty much the reaction. I thought. Okay, I’m probably gonna have to stick to this. So and then so a friend of mine on Twitter called Giles Edwards is a designer in the UK and has small agency there send me a message and said that he’d be interested in designing it for you know if I did want to you know, both serious about it which was a stroke of luck really because he has been amazing is his time at Gasp! is the agency. Were just amazing from the word go. I I said Look, I really don’t have you know, I don’t have a manuscript as such. I’ve got a whole lot of stuff that that I think it’s gonna be is gonna be usable and I can I can kind of group it into some loose things. But is it okay if I just send you you know, hold up Word documents and JPEGs and stuff like that? And he thought, yep, just send it over. I mean, this is literally how it happened. The the, you know, the map kind of premeditated thinking they’re waiting to it was was fairly minimal. And so we did that we kind of started off with, with him sending me a few options for kind of the, the general style. So he sent me some cover options. And there was one that jumped out at me immediately which was, which was essentially the, the cover as it stands on the book, which is, as you’ve seen, it kind of has this really absurdist kind of almost Monty Python esque feel to it. Yes. And, and I just felt that that complemented kind of my style really, really nicely and until we both agree that that was gonna be the way forward and and he he and kind of his time per did the kind of put together the layout on that basis. So there’s this real kind of really distinctive style that they’ve applied to what about looks amazing.

Adam Pierno 15:58
Honestly, when I saw that when I first the draft, I was blown away by how good it was, when hearing you describe the collection of Word docs that you shared, and you know how in your mind, it feels like it was very disorganized. The the design makes the entire thing makes sense together because that you go from and just randomly I’m just flipping through pages and you go from the the article, its board of your brand good. And then into the once upon a time there was a little brand story, which is amazing short story about a little brand that dies. They seem connected because the design gives you a cohesive thread and gives your brain permission to jump from topic to topic. Yeah, but but the writing is all connected, I think because it all came from your your brain. The threads are there for sure.

Ryan Wallman 16:49
Yeah, yeah, I think I think that’s very well said. And I’m sure Charles was very happy to hear that I and I think they sort of saw the commonalities as well. You know, he’s just they’re amazing, if you notice book designed on how I can’t recommend them all, you know, but I think that’s true. I think I had at least been organized enough in the way that I provided that because I did deep things, at least to that extent, you know what, at what are the commonalities here? What kind of order roughly makes sense without being too jarring? And then as you say, they kind of might work together so, so yeah, it was a really honestly it was such an easy process and they’re amazing to work with.

Adam Pierno 17:34
So you but what’s interesting about the story you told about how you how the book came to your mind, is because I find that you’re you are very committed to evidence and I can tell in your in your new practice what you preach the idea for the book, you, you It’s so experimental. I mean, I don’t know if experimental is pushing it too far, but it is so not Traditional to what if a quote unquote marketing book would be, you know, it’s not it doesn’t feel like a textbook at all, but yet it is packed with lessons that that you can’t help but get smacked in the face by did you think about Did you did you did that job submission crossed your mind off? Definitely.

Ryan Wallman 18:21
It’s just a question that’s kind of constantly fighting in my brain because as you probably know, my I guess my I guess my leanings really towards satirical to a satirical style. Yeah. And and I, you know, obviously I’ve done writing that’s more serious and there is some more serious working there. But what I hope and, and I think a couple of couple of people that have read the book have commented to the same effect is that there is always or generally a kind of a serious message behind the humor. And that is that we should be focusing on you know, on what works in the fundamental Anton and a lot of the satirical stuff is really pointing out the fallacies that that run counter to that. So yeah, I mean that’s the whole reason for the for the total delusions of grandeur. It’s really about pointing out some of the other nonsense and the and the pomposity and so on, that tends to provide the modern marketing industry and, and still kind of using some of, you know, some of the great of the wisdom of some of the greats from the past and then some of the current marketing thing is that I admire so people like Mark Woodson and Rory Sutherland Cindy Gallup you know, barn shop obviously. So So I hopefully hopefully there’s enough of a balance there that it’s that it’s not just taking the piece and and and there’s some serious stuffing there too wide is definitely

Adam Pierno 19:49
definitely is taking the past I don’t think you’re going to get away from that enjoyable the way it’s doing and I those The sensibility of it is what makes everything stick. I will remember things that I’m reading in this much better than had I read it, you know, in a very straightforward way. Well, that’s good. That’s good. Have you decided Thank you. But I guess that’s really, you know, that’s really something that I have to do in my, you know, my day job as well, which is try to make work telling and you know, that that isn’t necessarily very compelling and they can be quite dry. Well, that’s, that’s the next question I had for you is each spread. I treat like an ad because they’re somewhat self contained. They’re related as a thread, but they are somewhat self contained. Did you think of them that way? With with the team from gas, were you thinking of each one as a as a slide or as a as a long copy ad?

Ryan Wallman 20:47
Yeah, well, not. not explicitly. We didn’t we didn’t kind of say that out loud. But I think you’ve captured that really nicely because I think there certainly was an attempt for For everything to kind of look as though a standalone and, and funnily enough, we’ve actually been talking about the possibility of doing some posters and, you know, the notebooks and things like that and, and getting a bit of merge. So I think there’s certainly the possibility for some of those. And of course, you know, some of this stuff in there was very much written as a standalone piece. So, so I think we’ve tried to keep the integrity of that, you know, while still making it a kind of a collection that has has a thread running through it.

Adam Pierno 21:38
Yeah, I would love to see you said Monty Python earlier, which subliminally had had. I had received that message earlier, but I didn’t it hadn’t gotten out of my mouth before you said it. And now that I’m looking at the book, I’m wondering, I would love to see some videos using this graphic treatment.

Ryan Wallman 21:55
Oh, yeah, that’s a nice idea. Thank you. I have to talk to Giles about that

Adam Pierno 22:00
Get the sound effects going.

Ryan Wallman 22:01
Actually, I think I know I think I think we did actually talk about that I wanted to because particularly well, we’re going to do some promos. And using those little comic strip top effects. So yes, thank you for reminding us of that.

Adam Pierno 22:14
Yeah, I’m, I’m reminding you because I want them to exist. We’ll see what we can do. Thank you. Are you taking orders now this is perfect. What else? Can we talk about manifestos for a minute? Because they cracked me up. I’ve always thought there’s no greater waste of time. Then manifestos writing a manifesto, you Your, your mini article or spread or I guess it is a manuscript Manifesto. Is is hilarious. And I wanted to see how you stay at where you stand on actual manifestos, I assume and your category manifestos are not very important part of their work.

Ryan Wallman 22:53
No, I bet. I mean, you know, I’ve seen enough of them from agencies to know and are very much Your thoughts? Yeah, I mean, they’re beyond parody. A lot of them are now. So yeah, but I mean, that little one that I did was kind of semi serious, I guess. And really trying to be a bit of an antidote to those. So it’s been interesting the response that that’s received, because I think a lot of people share that script. Yeah.

Adam Pierno 23:24
Well, who’s had the best who’s had the most vocal reaction as a as a group? Is it strategy pros? Is it copywriters, designers? I mean, have you have you sensed a group that has reacted the most strongly to the book?

Ryan Wallman 23:39
I’m not particularly I think I’d say it’s probably all three of those to be honest. Only because, I mean, obviously I know a lot of copywriters and and, and I also know quite a lot of strategists on Twitter. So both of those I think have responded pretty well. And then of course, the designer is Another side of it all together and how good the book looks, has just been amazing. So I think, you know, I really can’t understate the importance of of what that’s done for the work. It’s really taken it to another level I think And so yeah, Giles and the gods deserve a lot of credit.

Adam Pierno 24:21
Did you think about who the book do you have an idea of who the book was written for besides yourself, you know, young sensibility and your own amusement? Or do you have a kind of target audience for the thing?

Ryan Wallman 24:34
Well, as I said, I think, as I’ve said on the on the blurb on the back cover, it’s basically written for people who don’t particularly like books by people like Gary Vee and Simon Sinek. So that’s kind of is a positioning in that deep. So it’s really people who are a bit tired of, you know, all the fluff, whether that’s on the agency side or the client side, I suspect, you know, it’s going to be much more popular with People on our side of the fence rather than rather than cause, but hopefully, hopefully, you know, we might even get a bit of traction among among that crowd as well. But yeah, I think I think probably people don’t think along similar lines to what we do. But if it goes a little bit broader than that, then that’d be great.

Adam Pierno 25:19
I given your comments on, Mr. Sinek. I’ll take back my next question which was going to be about your why. I’m assuming that you want to share logic and following evidence that has been proven out time and time again.

Ryan Wallman 25:40
Yep, yep. And as I said, there wasn’t really a single monitor purpose that I started with. A really good never why I love kind of getting everything down in one place.

Adam Pierno 25:50
I bet I bet if we talk in six months, you are able to distill back a reason that you have it not a not a why but a purpose or Something that comes to you maybe you can’t put it into words now, but this thing is to clearly presented for you to not have had the vision for it. So I think over time, it’ll come to you. Thank you. It is the so the category you’re in is rather conservative. This book is although there’s nothing outrageously crazy in it, it doesn’t strike me as the work of of a, like a medical agency. How does this jive with your with your office and with your clients? You know, I’m assuming you are who you are. So they know your sense of humor? Is it is has that come up at all or no?

Ryan Wallman 26:41
It has come up a couple of times. Mainly because I you know, I have heard quite a lot of this work on LinkedIn as well. Yeah. And it’s interesting. I think I’ve mentioned this to on a podcast for Well, it’s interesting the the response they received it Initially, I had, being a bit wary about putting some of the some of the more edgy stuff on LinkedIn and and but but to be honest, I think it almost has a better response to it just because of the fact that it’s it’s such stark contrast to the you know, the earnestness and seriousness of the stuff that you say on LinkedIn. And, and to your question I do get a response from clients that I’m connected to their and generally it’s been pretty positive. So I think we can be a little bit tentative about about being a bit different when in fact, you know, I can I think you just have to be self really.

Adam Pierno 27:42
Yeah, I think that’s true, but it’s it’s almost harder and harder as we get pushed into creating our personal brands and then taking those to the wall and never being allowed to reconsider that personal brand that you created.

Ryan Wallman 27:55
Yeah, well, that’s that’s certainly true. But yes, I think jensi have been very lenient with us, he’s probably the, probably the word that kind of allowed me to develop that, if you like, personal brand, I really don’t like that term, but, but in the absence of anything else. And, you know, I think it has also helped to raise the profile. Yeah, I didn’t see. So obviously, that’s a good thing as well. And, and I guess the other side of it is that even in my work, I, I try to bring some of that sensibility to our side, not, not always, you know, being taking the conservative option or being serious about it and trying to think of otherwise. And obviously, kind of humor is my, almost my default. So, so, certainly, in terms of our, our tone of voice, and the kind of the image that that Walmart presents to the world, a lot of that as I’ve kind of driven the tone of voice there. And so you’ll see I don’t know if you’ve ever seen that website, but it’s It’s a bit of a tongue in cheek style. So, so yeah, yeah, I think I think there are similarities and consistencies across it.

Adam Pierno 29:08
Well, I mean, no matter what the category is, there’s a there’s a place for the human who’s writing to connect with the human who will be reading the, the ad or the message or whatever it is, which I think you’ve proven your work, but is well proven in the book.

Ryan Wallman 29:24
Yeah, and I think well, and particularly now spice, and by debate more broadly, you know, under the old, the old sort of adage that you are still talking to two people at the end of the day and so, so you need to need to be able to engage with them.

Adam Pierno 29:40
I want to connect to what you’re saying about connecting with people through writing to your time as practicing meta studying and practicing medicine. Was that was that a big part of your time as practicing psychiatry?

Ryan Wallman 30:16
Yeah, yeah, huge part. So, I mean, that’s really the, the crux of workings our country, you know, constantly, constantly talking to people and having to understand them. And you know, I think empathy is a huge part of, of mental health. And I guess that’s one of the one of the similarities between the work I did then and then what I do now. And, yeah, it really is the basis of it all.

Adam Pierno 30:45
That’s that’s the that’s the thread that you were able to pick up from. Yep. From medicine through what you’re doing now. I’m have the page where you talk about the house of God. Yep. And that’s, that’s a one of the more emotional pages In the in the book. And that’s that’s kind of the question I had there is, you know, it’s a look at not just how we connect with customers, but how we take care of each other in this crazy industry that is demanding for No, no real reason.

Ryan Wallman 31:17
Yes. And I think that’s part of what struck me about, you know, the absurdity of the industry in some ways when I first came into it was how seriously a lot of stuff gets taken that really didn’t seem particularly serious to me having having just come from that world. But in that article about the house of God, God that I wrote about, I think, it was almost as I was writing that article that some of those commonalities kind of occurred to me that I hadn’t really considered before and, and even, even as the author of that book submission, said, even when he was writing that book, he wasn’t kind of aware of some of the real important human things that were that were that were in it. And it was only when he read it that, that it became apparent to him. And I think I wonder if in some ways that book shaped me more than I thought it did. Because it’s, it’s very satirical, but also, you know, has this has this really serious point about about being available and being with the patient. So perhaps that’s that kind of came to me later.

Adam Pierno 32:24
Yeah, I think satire has a way of breaking through and and sometimes when direct writing just just won’t we our brains won’t take it.

Ryan Wallman 32:36
Yep. Yep. I think that’s very true.

Adam Pierno 32:40
And not that.

Ryan Wallman 32:41
That’s called the approach that I’ve taken now.

Adam Pierno 32:43
Yeah, it’s and you’ve done it to great effect here with delusional brander I really appreciate you making time to talk to me tonight. Or this morning over there, right. Hey, I’m just starting a day. Yeah, no problem that I appreciate the the opportunity so thanks, of course. Hey, where can people find you online? And where can people find delusions of brander? Well,

Ryan Wallman 33:07
They can find me on Twitter, which is Dr. underscore Draper. I’m on LinkedIn as well. If you just search for my name, and TV, the brand new side, we do have a landing page, which we’re going to be putting a few extra little things on soon. But that also has access to the Amazon site. So it’s delusions of grandeur.com. And if you You can also search if you search my name on Amazon, you’ll find it too.

Adam Pierno 33:33
Yeah, definitely. I’ll be linking to that book and your pages in the in the show notes for sure.

Ryan Wallman 33:38
Okay, great. Thank you.

Adam Pierno 33:40
Awesome. Well, this has been fantastic is very nice to meet you and and great to spend some time with you tonight here.

Ryan Wallman 33:46
Thanks a lot, Adam. I really appreciate it.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai